Local: Samoa Change
 

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is it Tonga's Nukuleka or Samoas Pulemelei

If only the stones could talk a ea?

Samoa is the craddle of polynesia thats my own humble opinion but that's my own humble opinion although we can not discount archeological sites and artifacts that are continued to be discovered in Fiji, and Tonga.

Our oral traditions suggest that Samoa is and that Manu'a is where it all began.

Sorry I made a mistake with my post ua repeat isi upu ua tau leaga fo'i mata..lol

I can see that this topic is gonna be very controversial....oh well thats what its all about!!!! voicing your opinion

Proud Hamo wrote:

Sorry I made a mistake with my post ua repeat isi upu ua tau leaga fo'i mata..lol
As the words of our dear brother SCOPAuso

"Gagana mai"....

LOL.
alofa atu sis.

O se tasi wrote:
I can see that this topic is gonna be very controversial....oh well thats what its all about!!!! voicing your opinion


It can be bro, as there are remarkable evidences suggesting that the cradle lies withint Upolu's boundaries although Pulemelei is located on Savai'i.

Proud Hamo wrote:

Samoa is the craddle of polynesia thats my own humble opinion but that's my own humble opinion although we can not discount archeological sites and artifacts that are continued to be discovered in Fiji, and Tonga.
Our oral traditions suggest that Samoa is and that Manu'a is where it all began.


I hate to disagree with you on one count with this one sis and that is Manu'a is where it all began. Tui Manua, Tui Fiti and Tui Toga were titles bestowed by Tagaloa a Lagi who once resided in Lagituaiva. Lagituaiva is located at Uafato, Fagaloa on Upolu where the name Samoa originates from. Myth tells that when a member of Tagaloa a Lagi's clan took chicken from Lu Fasiaitu's flock, Lu went on a killing spree which resulted in him killing members of Tagaloa A Lagi's family. He started killing members of the clan from the 1st Heaven to the 8th when Tagaloa decided he will provide his daughter Leamoa as a sacrifice. Now I will not go into details but will stick with the origins. The name Samoa derives from a ban of chickens by Tagaloa a Lagi on his sacred grounds after having been forced to provide Leamoa as a sacrifice to Lu. When interpreted immediately into samoan,e SA MOA.
In some parts of the Pacific, from the Cook Islands, Fiji, Tonga and NZ, you will find that there is an identical GOD they once worshiped and that is where Tagaloa comes in and the question is, where did Tagaloa once resided at?

SCOPA uso wrote:
<quoted text>
I hate to disagree with you on one count with this one sis and that is Manu'a is where it all began. Tui Manua, Tui Fiti and Tui Toga were titles bestowed by Tagaloa a Lagi who once resided in Lagituaiva. Lagituaiva is located at Uafato, Fagaloa on Upolu where the name Samoa originates from. Myth tells that when a member of Tagaloa a Lagi's clan took chicken from Lu Fasiaitu's flock, Lu went on a killing spree which resulted in him killing members of Tagaloa A Lagi's family. He started killing members of the clan from the 1st Heaven to the 8th when Tagaloa decided he will provide his daughter Leamoa as a sacrifice. Now I will not go into details but will stick with the origins. The name Samoa derives from a ban of chickens by Tagaloa a Lagi on his sacred grounds after having been forced to provide Leamoa as a sacrifice to Lu. When interpreted immediately into samoan,e SA MOA.
In some parts of the Pacific, from the Cook Islands, Fiji, Tonga and NZ, you will find that there is an identical GOD they once worshiped and that is where Tagaloa comes in and the question is, where did Tagaloa once resided at?


There are many different traditional stories of how the name of Samoa was found. Some account said that the name Samoa came from the name of Tu'iManu'a-i-le-moa some say that it came from sa moa of the TuiAtua (Luafasiaitu) and some came from some of Savea Si'uleo children (descendants).

Manu'a is where TagaloaLagi and the Sa-Tagaloa clan resided

Proud Hamo wrote:
<quoted text>
There are many different traditional stories of how the name of Samoa was found. Some account said that the name Samoa came from the name of Tu'iManu'a-i-le-moa some say that it came from sa moa of the TuiAtua (Luafasiaitu) and some came from some of Savea Si'uleo children (descendants).
Manu'a is where TagaloaLagi and the Sa-Tagaloa clan resided


My question then Proud, what achaelogical site on Manu'a evidently suggests this to be the case?

Lol. Se malo samoa wel jus google pulemelei

SCOPA uso wrote:
<quoted text>
My question then Proud, what achaelogical site on Manu'a evidently suggests this to be the case?


I posted my last response without completing it. In asking that question, another evident that you suggested comes into mind. Savea Si'uleo existed after Tagaloaalagi was casted out by Lufasiaitu, whom you've agreed by naming the first Tui Atua, from lagituaiva and again, the titles Tui were bestowed by Tagaloaalagi at the time of his reign. There are achaelogical/historical sites to support this claim at this same place in Upolu. I haven't been to Manu'a so my argument is based on sites I have visited on Upolu and this is my own opinion without discrediting someone else's claim.

So wat is da pulemelei

sorry kuys it all started when manu came through on his canoe and spoke to the palagi through sacred prayer and papalagi was waiting for manu whose canoe sailed past papalagi who say to many "that will be 19.28 please for your 20piece chicken. Have a nice day manu! come back visit us at roscoes chicken and waffles"

SCOPA uso wrote:
<quoted text>
I posted my last response without completing it. In asking that question, another evident that you suggested comes into mind. Savea Si'uleo existed after Tagaloaalagi was casted out by Lufasiaitu, whom you've agreed by naming the first Tui Atua, from lagituaiva and again, the titles Tui were bestowed by Tagaloaalagi at the time of his reign. There are achaelogical/historical sites to support this claim at this same place in Upolu. I haven't been to Manu'a so my argument is based on sites I have visited on Upolu and this is my own opinion without discrediting someone else's claim.


Hey Scopa..Oa mai??..well I can only go on the sources that I've read and come across about the history of Samoa. We all know that Samoa "O le i'a e iviivia"..O le atunu'u ua uma ona tofi"..there are different accounts or mau with regards to our oral traditions and things that are sacred to us. It is no secret that even the same stories varies amongst districts, villages and so forth..So in that sense it is with great trepidation that I tread carefully just in case I indirectly offend someone. Talking about things Samoan on a deeper level is like walking on egg shells because it is uncharted water for the likes of me..lol..

Back to the topic You are correct that the Tu'i Manua and Tu'iTonga titles were bestowed by TagagaloaLagi. Tu'iTonga then became the first ruler of Tonga (Ahoe'itu) or Asoaitu in Samoan and the TuiManua rule over Samoa. According to the mau the TagaloaLagi and the Sa-Tagaloa clan were residing in Manu'a at this time hence the Long lasting covenant of Tu'iTonga and TuiManua which was always observed in close friendship. That's why they have never gone into war with each other. As for the proof that Manua is where it all began. There is an archeological site in Ofu called To'aga. It has evidence that dates back to more than 3000 years of human settlements. This is the place where Polynesian were believed to have originated from..thats my own humble opinion.

Manuia le aso.

Oh and don't forget the saying "O Manua o le tama matua" o Manua fo'i o le "fa'autaga".

Manuia.

Proud Hamo wrote:

Oh and don't forget the saying "O Manua o le tama matua" o Manua fo'i o le "fa'autaga".
Manuia.

Hi sis,
You see, this is what we call a substantiated argument, you present your own opinion based on the number of theories passed down by word of mouth and I do likewise. E sa'o lelei oe, o Samoa o le ia e iviivia ma o le atunu'u foi ua uma ona tofi. Therefore, o le mea ma lona fa'asinomaga ma lona amataga. In support of my argument, I have copied part of this extract as presented by HH Tuiatua Tupua Tamasese to archaeologists who excavated Pulemelei Mound on top of having visited the sites myself.
Quote," In the Tagaloa mythology, the earth is the consequence of the Big Bang i.e. the separation of Lagi (heaven) and papa (rock) and human life originates from germs (ilo) (Andersen 1928). The Tagaloa thesis could be viewed as closer to the scientific explanation of evolution than what is said in biblical texts. In Samoan/Polynesian mythology Tuli (Pacific Golden Plover, Pluvialis fulva a winter migrating bird), Tagaloa's messenger, was sent down to earth and discovered the Samoan islands. Here he introduced varieties of plants and trees. After Samoa, the plovers did the same for Tonga and Fiji. Then the plovers, by Tagaloa's commands, designated the figure of Man from germs and they were sent to populate these three islands (Fraser et al. 1891) The Tagaloa regime is well recorded in Samoan oral history, especially its fall. To this day, it is commemorated by the chant at a chief's funeral: Tulouna ale lagi male lagi ma le lagi! The orator chants the honorifics (fa'alupega) of each of the nine heavens. When the orator reaches the honorifics of the ninth heaven, a member of the deceased family will intervene and invite them, i.e. orator and party, into a residence as official mourners. The chant is their passport into residence. In the ninth heaven, Amoa the daughter of Tagaloa intervened on behalf of her father and offered herself in marriage in order to spare her father and his personal entourage from the wrath of the victor Lu Fasiaitu. This intervention is commemorated by the Samoan proverb: faalava le Amoa (meaning 'intervention by Amoa'). The causus belli was the theft of Lu's sacred chickens by Tagaloa's people. The discovery of the sacred chickens is commemorated by the Samoan proverb, E ufiufi atu lava tama'i moa ae 'io 'io mai, meaning the attempt to hide the chickens under the kava bowl was given away by their cry. Lu's sacred chickens meaning Sa Moa became the name of the islands (Kramer 1994:9; Turner 1884:10-15). Lu became the first Tui Atua. According to the Samoan Tui Atua and Tui Aana traditions, the Tagaloa inheritance was divided amongst the progeny of the union between Tui Atua Lu Fasiaitu and Amoa; this provided for the separate inheritances of Tui Atua, Tui Aana, Tui Manu'a, Tui Tonga and Tui Fiti. "

Please refer to following.

Continuation of above extract.

There is no Tui regime in the Hawaiian, Tahitian, Aotearoa or Rapanui traditions. The suggestion is that they migrated before the fall of the Tagaioa regime. In those traditions, there are several references to Savai'i (Hawaiki), Manono, Upolu, Tutuila, Manu'a, Tonga and Fiti and even To'elan and no mention of Samoa. This suggests that the name Samoa is more recent. Along the line of genealogical reasoning, Tui Atua, Tui Aana, Tui Manu'a, Tui Tonga, Tui Fiti are of equal ranking. Notably within this list there is not yet any specific reference to a Tui Samoa of equal ranking or of contemporaneous origin. When the missionaries arrived in Samoa in 1830, Samoa, as a distinct political entity included only Savai'i, Apolima, Manono, Upolu and Tutuila--not Manu'a. In 1900, Manu'a, by colonial design, was joined to Tutuila (however, Manu'a only acceded after considerable colonial pressure in 1904). The joining has no basis in Samoan historical precedent. In sum, within the Tagaloa mythology, Man originates from the union between lagi (heaven) and papa (rock). Because of this genealogy, Man shares divinity with the sun, the moon, the stars, the sea and the land. The core symbols of the Tagaloa religion are celebrated linguistically in words like 'ele 'ele (earth) and palapala (mud) which are also words for blood; and fatu meaning rock, which is also the word for heart. To underline the links across Polynesia, the placenta which is whenua in Maori, is also their word for land; fanua in Samoan is used in the same way to refer to both land and placenta. Also, the umbilical cord is similarly named, i.e. puke in Maori and pute in Samoan, these (both placenta and umbilical cord) are buried ritually in the earth. Rituals are a direct link to mythology, to Tagaloa (Andersen 1928). Unquote."
Hoping this would shed more light on how I formulated my own opinion. Ia manuia le aso.

Hi sis,

This was suppose to be the first part of my response to you however, system can only accept 4000 characters. Anyway, you are so right in saying o Samoa o le ia e iviivia and I can only add that o le atunu'u fo'i ua uma ona tofi. These deliberations can be so educational from a certain standpoint as long as e le sau fo'i se vale fa'aleaga.

Tagaloa in Samoan/Polynesian mythology

In the Tagaloa mythology, the earth is the consequence of the Big Bang i.e. the separation of Lagi (heaven) and papa (rock) and human life originates from germs (ilo) (Andersen 1928). The Tagaloa thesis could be viewed as closer to the scientific explanation of evolution than what is said in biblical texts.

In Samoan/Polynesian mythology Tuli (Pacific Golden Plover, Pluvialis fulva a winter migrating bird), Tagaloa's messenger, was sent down to earth and discovered the Samoan islands. Here he introduced varieties of plants and trees. After Samoa, the plovers did the same for Tonga and Fiji. Then the plovers, by Tagaloa's commands, designated the figure of Man from germs and they were sent to populate these three islands (Fraser et al. 1891)

The Tagaloa regime is well recorded in Samoan oral history, especially its fall. To this day, it is commemorated by the chant at a chief's funeral: Tulouna ale lagi male lagi ma le lagi! The orator chants the honorifics (fa'alupega) of each of the nine heavens. When the orator reaches the honorifics of the ninth heaven, a member of the deceased family will intervene and invite them, i.e. orator and party, into a residence as official mourners. The chant is their passport into residence.

In the ninth heaven, Amoa the daughter of Tagaloa intervened on behalf of her father and offered herself in marriage in order to spare her father and his personal entourage from the wrath of the victor Lu Fasiaitu. This intervention is commemorated by the Samoan proverb: faalava le Amoa (meaning 'intervention by Amoa').

The causus belli was the theft of Lu's sacred chickens by Tagaloa's people. The discovery of the sacred chickens is commemorated by the Samoan proverb, E ufiufi atu lava tama'i moa ae 'io 'io mai, meaning the attempt to hide the chickens under the kava bowl was given away by their cry. Lu's sacred chickens meaning Sa Moa became the name of the islands (Kramer 1994:9; Turner 1884:10-15).

Lu became the first Tui Atua. According to the Samoan Tui Atua and Tui Aana traditions, the Tagaloa inheritance was divided amongst the progeny of the union between Tui Atua Lu Fasiaitu and Amoa; this provided for the separate inheritances of Tui Atua, Tui Aana, Tui Manu'a, Tui Tonga and Tui Fiti.

Hi sis Proud,

I am having a hard time trying to copy an extract supporting my own opinion. Anyway, I will need to log this in parts as topix can only accept 4000 characters in one hit. Ae pei na e tau maia and I agree with you, o Samoa o le atunu'u e iviivia and I can only add o le Atunu'u fo'i ua uma ona tofi. I will place the first part of my response here, log off, and see if I can provide the second part of it in another. Enjoy.

Tagaloa in Samoan/Polynesian mythology

In the Tagaloa mythology, the earth is the consequence of the Big Bang i.e. the separation of Lagi (heaven) and papa (rock) and human life originates from germs (ilo) (Andersen 1928). The Tagaloa thesis could be viewed as closer to the scientific explanation of evolution than what is said in biblical texts.

In Samoan/Polynesian mythology Tuli (Pacific Golden Plover, Pluvialis fulva a winter migrating bird), Tagaloa's messenger, was sent down to earth and discovered the Samoan islands. Here he introduced varieties of plants and trees. After Samoa, the plovers did the same for Tonga and Fiji. Then the plovers, by Tagaloa's commands, designated the figure of Man from germs and they were sent to populate these three islands (Fraser et al. 1891)

The Tagaloa regime is well recorded in Samoan oral history, especially its fall. To this day, it is commemorated by the chant at a chief's funeral: Tulouna ale lagi male lagi ma le lagi! The orator chants the honorifics (fa'alupega) of each of the nine heavens. When the orator reaches the honorifics of the ninth heaven, a member of the deceased family will intervene and invite them, i.e. orator and party, into a residence as official mourners. The chant is their passport into residence.

In the ninth heaven, Amoa the daughter of Tagaloa intervened on behalf of her father and offered herself in marriage in order to spare her father and his personal entourage from the wrath of the victor Lu Fasiaitu. This intervention is commemorated by the Samoan proverb: faalava le Amoa (meaning 'intervention by Amoa').

The causus belli was the theft of Lu's sacred chickens by Tagaloa's people. The discovery of the sacred chickens is commemorated by the Samoan proverb, E ufiufi atu lava tama'i moa ae 'io 'io mai, meaning the attempt to hide the chickens under the kava bowl was given away by their cry. Lu's sacred chickens meaning Sa Moa became the name of the islands (Kramer 1994:9; Turner 1884:10-15).

Lu became the first Tui Atua. According to the Samoan Tui Atua and Tui Aana traditions, the Tagaloa inheritance was divided amongst the progeny of the union between Tui Atua Lu Fasiaitu and Amoa; this provided for the separate inheritances of Tui Atua, Tui Aana, Tui Manu'a, Tui Tonga and Tui Fiti.

There is no Tui regime in the Hawaiian, Tahitian, Aotearoa or Rapanui traditions. The suggestion is that they migrated before the fall of the Tagaioa regime. In those traditions, there are several references to Savai'i (Hawaiki), Manono, Upolu, Tutuila, Manu'a, Tonga and Fiti and even To'elan and no mention of Samoa. This suggests that the name Samoa is more recent.
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